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2011-05-06 17:54:14

Last author: iippo
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The Dark Knight Observations

I have a *cough* healthy bsession with the new Batman movie The Dark Knight, and as a result I've seen it a few times now. I noticed a few things in the film that I wanted to share with people, and that made me think that maybe other people have noticed things that they'd like to share too. So if you like the sort of movie-analysis type-of-thing, you're in the right place. :) But don't expect this to be a super-serious thing, and the more off-the-wall, out-of-the-box far-fetched connections and theories are welcome too.

Warning. This place will have spoilers.

"Where is Harvey Dent?"
A lot of people enquire about Harvey's whereabouts during the film (the Joker when he raids the party, Rachel after the asassination-attempt on the mayor, Batman when he interrogates the Joker, Gordon when Harvey's turned into Two-Face and goes missing from the hospital, etc etc...) It reflects on how Harvey's position on the good-bad axis slides from one side to the other during the film, and one of the main questions of the film concerning character development is 'where is Harvey Dent in this scale?'

"No, I'm not... not crazy."
In the beginning everyone underestimates the Joker. For example, the mob think he's just a clown in a cheap suit; Batman and Gordon see him as less significant compared to the mob; the clowns Joker hires to rob the bank all talk of him in a condesending way. This is also one key theme in the film, as Batman needs to come to understand what kind of a man Joker is, and to understand that he himself has to become something he doesn't want to.

"You'll just have to play my little game..."
When Harvey and Rachel are kidnapped and Batman interrogates the Joker, the Joker lies about their whereabouts. Batman wants to save Rachel, but he is tricked and ends up saving Harvey. They never tell Harvey the truth, but Batman and Gordon take the responsibility of saving Harvey, telling him that Rachel is dead because of their choices, not because of chance.

"Wanna know how I got these scars?"
The Joker tells two different stories about the origins of his scars, and the third time he offers to tell Batman how he got them, too. It is clear that he always makes it up, and that we'll never know how exactly he got them.

"It's a funny world we live in."
There is a subversion of order that happens throughout the film - example: when they're escorting Dent to the prison, the vehicle Joker sets on fire to divert them onto the lower road is a fire truck.

"Get a good look at the real Harvey Dent and all the heroic things he's done"
Harvey's coin landing shiny-side-up at the end of the movie works well to show how the world would see Harvey in the end, as his coin lands with the scratched side essentially buried in the dirt.

"Like I said - I'm good with calculations."
The Planet Money podcast had an episode where they explained financial crime, and it helps understand what goes on in the cancellation of the business deal with Wayne Enterprises and Lao's company. In the podcast an ex-financial criminal explains how their company used to not declare sales tax and kept the money hidden. Then later when they made the company public, they gradually over time declared more and more of the sales tax, making it look on the books that the company was growing consistently - when in fact the company was doing the same. Now this kind of growth makes a company's stock worth more (since stock is always about potential; a company that seems to be growing is worth more), so they were making a lot of money by selling the stock. And the criminal-turned-educator mentioned that any company that seems to be growing consistently is suspicious, because nothing succeeds like that, that real success always comes with setbacks. But that would be difficult to remember when faced with something so promising-looking as a rapidly growing company. Considering that with what Lucius Fox says after the meeting: "everybody else is excited and love it, but I'm not convinced. They've grown like clockwork, which suggests that their revenue is off the books, maybe even illegal."
I found this example on the podcast to be helpful for understanding what goes on in the movie since it's never really explained, and the world of finance is difficult to understand without explanations.

"I have one rule."
As we know from everywhere (comics, cartoons, movies), the Batman does not kill. Ever. That is his one rule. And the Joker, taunting him in the interrogation scene tells him that he has to break his one rule to know the truth, and he almost prophetically says that Batman will break his one rule that very night. Though the Joker may have implied that Rachel dying will be the Batman's doing, no one actually holds this to him (except Batman himself and Two-Face at the end, but he seems to be just generally upset at everyone). At the aftermath Gordon despairing says that Harvey's reputation is gone, and here Batman takes upon himself the deaths of the people Two-Face shot. So the word will go out: Batman killed people, Batman is a cop-killer. So in a sense, there goes his rule.

Return To:
The Dark Knight

2008-08-19 [windowframe]: There are a lot of people saying two-face could be the bad guy in the next film, because Batman and he take exactly the same fall, and Batman survives, so why not Dent, too? (I think this conveniently ignores the fact that Dent is already a bit deader than Batman, having only half a face left, and all, and the fact that Batman has armour, and does technically fall a shorter distance, because he grabbed onto the beam and them fell from there, making the fall at least 6 feet shorter..). Also, the coin that Dent flips lands shiny side up, (But again, I just took that as an indication of other things).

2008-08-19 [windowframe]: I also wished they'd explain the fact that Joker lied to them about which person was in which building. >_< Instead I just wonder 'but why didn't they tell Harvey?" Joker rigged it just like Harvey's coin was rigged.

2008-08-19 [Duke Devlin]: I love the fact that no backstory is ever pinned down for the Joker. :) It's awesome. :)
I have to agree with you Silvie, on the note that Harvey is unlikely to have survived that fall. Sure, it's possible, but given his state - as you said - it is not very likely. =X Sadly. :( He was very well played. :D I have a question for people - do you think that they should include in a new movie, Harley's story? How she fell in love with the Joker (or 'Jack Napier' as he is sometimes called. :P), and how she became Harley Quinn, from Harleen Quinzel? :O I dunno, I just thought it'd be a nice idea.. You know, include clips of the Joker - but obviously nothing new.. Given Mr. Heath's ... untimely death. :( .. I think I am rambling now. XD
Buh bye xXx

2008-08-20 [iippo]: But how should they have explained about Joker's lying? It came through anywa and it wasn't in-your-face obvious. And I agree with not telling Harvey, the man was utterly distraught, telling him "yeah, I didn't actually want to save you" would be kind of a slap in the face.

2008-08-20 [windowframe]: It sort of came through. First time around I just assumed I'd heard Batman say the wrong name, actually.

2008-08-24 [iippo]: Meh, it's subtle and it's not horribly important.

I reckon Two-Face is dead, nevermind the coin. Because Batman and Gordon were telling him that Rachel's death wasn't chance but a choice, and the Joker is telling everyone through the movie that killing/dying/life being lost is always a choice made by someone. So even though Harvey's coin landed shiny side up, someone's choice over-ruled chance.

Actually, now that I think of it. He's not flipping the coin for himself before Batman tackles him, he's flipping it for Gordon (or his son? I'm not sure who he's thinking of shooting there).

I think the Joker was meant to be the next villain, with possibly introing Quinn... If I was a big movie-boss, that's what I would have called it. But now that Ledger is dead... I don't know. Maybe they're sad they killed Harvey, because he would have been a good villain to keep, so they might bring him back. It's a bit... silly that he died. It's like "lets ignore all these stories in the comics of all these crimes Two-Face has committed: in this Batman world the character Two-Face only lived for two days." :/

2008-08-24 [windowframe]: IT was for Gordon's son (this is what I meant when I said "i took that as an indication of other things, why didn't you understand exactly what I meant, sheesh?) He flips the coin for Gordon's son, and Gordon's son lives, because just like Dent at the start of the film, Batman didn't leave it to chance.

2008-09-08 [Blood Raven]: Well, the comics tell us that in the end, none of the villains really die, but they all end up in Arkham Asylum. I assume this is where the Joker and Harvey end up, too.

I'm really curious who would be the next movies' bad guy. I mean, I don't see them topping Ledger's performance of the Joker, and honestly, I think it would damage his legacy to make another Joker movie, as much as I liked the part in the Dark Knight. Also, I think it wouldn't be a good idea to bring back Harvey. His part was nice, but it's rather finished, really.

Other than that, here's another little detail: you will notice the accountant hired by Wayne Enterprises is called Mister Reece ("Mysteries"), rumour goes he might be the Riddler. Who knows, maybe Jim Carrey's role will be refreshed as well :)

Another fact: Christian Bale has already said that if the next movie was to include Boy Wonder / Robin, he would quit. This means no poorly played horridly dressed teenager will take part in the third movie :D

2008-09-09 [iippo]: I've heard rumours of Riddler being involved, too... But his real name is Edward Nashton, isn't it? So I dunno how they'd work out that Coleman Reese is him... Sides, Riddler is a genius - Reese doesn't really seem it XD Although the Riddler does know Batman's identity, so it might tie in there, as Reese knows too.

I do think they'll need to make at least one more Batman. Make a trilogy of it at least. (Sides, it's going good, they are making lots of money of it... As long as they keep the quality up, I'll have no complaints :P)

2008-09-09 [Blood Raven]: Christian Bale signed a contract for three movies, so there will be a next one, unless there's a Robin or Mr. Freeze involved :)

And I don't think they're following the comics exactly. It's more a source of inspiration, I'd guess. Seeing some Batman comics really aren't all that great :P
So maybe Mister Reece is the Riddler after all, but he just needs to discover his diabolical intellect first XD
I do hope the bad guys will remain rather realistic and down-to-earth, like in Begin and Dark Knight. It wouldn't be very cool to have Poison Ivy run around being all half-plantish and ruining the dark feel of the movies.

2008-09-13 [windowframe]: Even the comics don't follow the comics exactly, so I guess there's no reason why the film should. :P

2008-09-19 [Duke Devlin]: That is a very good point, Silvie. XD Very little of the comics actually do follow eachother. :P

2008-09-26 [NamelessMerc]: Interjection on earlier point; Nobody seems to have thought what I did about Harvey's coin landing shiny-side-up at the end of the movie. I assumed (after the dialogue about Batman being framed) that it was to show how the world would see Harvey in the end, as his coin lands with the scratched side essentially buried in the dirt.

I'm looking forward to another Batman movie and, to be honest, I'd love it if they refreshed the Penguin, as good as the Riddler may be. The Penguin was always my favourite Batman villain; though how anyone would top Danny DeVito in Batman Returns is beyond me. That said, I used to think that about Jack Nicholson's Joker.

2008-09-26 [Blood Raven]: Well spoken X)

2008-09-29 [Duke Devlin]: Agreed! I did think the same about Nicholson's Joker, but Ledger blew that almost entirely out of the water! So I would be very interested to see how a director and actor could top Danny DeVito's work. :O

2008-09-29 [windowframe]: Nice idea about the coin, Merc, I certainly hadn't thought of that. :)

2008-10-01 [iippo]: That's a good one, Merc.

Edit the wiki with your observations, plz :3

2008-10-02 [NamelessMerc]: 0.0; Now I need to find a suitabe quote!

2008-10-02 [windowframe]: What about the one where they say he's Gotham's white knight?

2008-10-02 [NamelessMerc]: Hm, tempting. I'll try to find a transcript. I have one in mind.

2009-01-20 [windowframe]: I showed this film to one of my uni friends the other day because he hadn't seen it yet. Afterward, as is only natural he agreed that it was full of win. But one of the things he commented on was the subversion of order that happens throughout the film - example: when they're escorting Dent to the prison, the vehicle Joker sets on fire to divert them onto the lower road is a fire truck.

2009-01-20 [iippo]: Good one *adds* And no one gets credit here, muahaha

2009-01-20 [iippo]: And I just noticed that I an subconsciously only using Joker-quotes o.O *goes to lie down*

2009-05-01 [windowframe]: Another thought:
"Do I look like a man with a plan?" The Joker claims he has no plans, that he just acts without thinking - he's not a schemer. But at the end, after a whole series of elaborate plans and back-up plans that all inter-link, he admits to Batman, "You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fistfight with you? No. You need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey." Apart from the fact that this shows that ultimately, the Joker knows exactly what he's doing (and knew exactly what to say to get Harvey to do what he wanted), it also plays on the theme of chance - Joker gets Harvey to start playing the chaos-game, represented by chance, but he, even as the ultimate representative of chaos doesn't use chance himself.

2009-05-01 [Duke Devlin]: I think that that is likely just an oversight on the part of the directors/whoever. =/ I mean, we can't expect them to get everything right, can we? =/

2009-05-04 [iippo]: I wouldn't call it an over-sight, on the contrary, it's a very effective and subtle rhetoric device that works perfectly for the meaning/message of the film. The question the Joker poses 'do I look like a guy with a plan' could be answered in the same humorous way he himself answers the mob when they ask 'you think you can just steal from us and walk away?' -'Uhh... yeah.' :D

Another thing about plans. Joker tells Harvey about all these schemers: the mob, the cops, Gordon... But those people actually don't really have plans. The mob is against the wall, not knowing what to do with the sudden cleansing going on in the city; the cops are running around in circles with their own problems of corruption within their force; Gordon is doing his best with the limited resources he has, but he is weak and vulnerable and afraid. But the one who really does have plans is Batman. His carefully crafted mission to get Lao back from China, for example. It's like clockwork. Batman and Joker and two sides of the same coin, destined to be locked in this back-and-forth battle with witty lines ('do you know how I got these scars?' -'No, but I know how you got these.' Or 'There's a little fight in you, I like that.' -'Then you're gonna love me.') forever, and in this film poor Harvey is a pawn in their game (in the comics he tends to be his own player, but the movie is pretty far from the comics - in a good way). Which to me suggests that you can't get anything done in Gotham without a mask, which is what they make Harvey wear after his death. In the world of the super-people (heroes and villains) the equilibrium remains: Joker won, he dragged Harvey down, but Batman also won by taking the blame and leaving Harvey spotless (stop me now, I'm doing a weird twisted Christian tilt on this thing, Batman taking away Harvey's sins though he himself is blameless... o.O )

2009-05-04 [windowframe]: *agrees with iippo that it's not just an oversight* Both parts (his elaborate plans and him saying he doesn't have plans) are too integral to the plot and characters for their failure to notice the contradictions to be anything but an epic oversight, and I think we can give them more credit than to assume such a epic fail on their part.

2009-05-06 [Duke Devlin]: :D Guess I didn't put much thought into that reply. ;) You make some very good points there, but I think I neglected to think about the fact that the Joker has no set personality. He reinvents himself every day, does he not? I seem to recall him changing a lot anyway. So really, the contradictions could be put down to that as well, right?

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